Donald Miller Interview Video

About a year and a half ago I went with a good friend to interview Donald Miller. The church I attend was doing Blue Like Jazz for the mealgroup book and we talked with Don a bit about the book. I posted about this experience here, and here you were able to read a transcript of the video above. James finally uploaded the video to google, so I present it to you now. As you will be able to tell, it is edited and some things are cut out, including editing some of his answers, which got a bit long. James is the guy in the video asking the questions.

Let me know your thoughts!

PS And by the way, I'm the guy who threw the book. Didn't I nail it?

Donald Miller Interview

As many of you know, I got to tag along as a friend of mine, James Brown, got to interview Donald Miller, the author of Blue Like Jazz, back in September. I wrote about it here. finally, after the editing of the video is done and a copy made it into my hand, and I was able to transfer it to text, I am now posting the transcript of the interview. I tried unsuccessfully to post the video on myspace or youtube, but it is 3 times the maximum limit for space. I will continue to look into converting the video into a smaller format so I can post it on here for you guys. The transcript is not the best substitute, but you get the meat of what he is saying.

The interview was very conversational, so I did my best to keep it accurate. Unfortunately, that results in some grammatical issues and run on sentences. Please forgive that for now. I felt it was more important to keep it as close to the original as possible. I have added my own commentary in italics, if you care. If not, please feel free to skip over it. Also, forgive me as it is very, very long. I thought about posting it in 2 or 3 parts, but decided to just give you the whole thing and not mess with the flow by breaking it up. This is the longest post ever, but I think it is worth reading. Thanks ahead of time for reading it and I hope you enjoy. Let me know what you thought.



James Brown: Hey everybody, we are here with Donald Miller, and we are here to take a look at his book Blue like Jazz. Thanks so much, Donald, for coming…

Donald: Good to be here.

JB: …and spending some time with us. I don’t know if our community knows that much about you, so if you could tell them a few things about who you are; the essence of your being, what would you tell them?

DM: I love cats. I have over 50 cats in my house at all times.

JB: Really!? It must smell really good.

DM: When I come home. I’ve been gone for 3 weeks and they haven’t been out.

JB: Really? (laughs)

DM: I doubt it. But I love cats. My whole life is about cats. Cat posters, ceramic cats, cat snow globes. I collect cat things.

JB: Wow!

DM: Yeah.

JB: Well, my name is James Brown, I introduced myself earlier, but my dog I had for a little bit, his name was Ray Charles, so the two of us together made a fantastic pair.

DM: (laughs) I would imagine…that’s great.

The Interview started off on a fun note. If you couldn’t tell, Donald was making all of that stuff about the cats up as a joke (he confessed later off camera). Although, in a weird way, he did answer the question. He did give us a look at who he is as a person…because that’s him. He is a joker and likes to keep people on their toes. He also likes to make people a little uncomfortable, and you must admit that you were about half way through his story. Donald is a fun guy, and that is seen early on in the interview.

JB: So the title of your book is Blue Like Jazz. Can you tell us a little bit about the title, why you picked that?

DM: Yeah, ya know it’s not the greatest story ever but it was the working title. Usually if I’m working on a book it has a working title, then we come up with another title later when the book is done. So, we sat around for a couple hours, me and a bunch of marketing people, and we tried to come up with another title, but we couldn’t. We couldn’t think of one: most of them were very cheesy. So, Blue Like Jazz was the title we gave the book as a way of giving up on it. We literally were saying, “Well, let’s just throw it away and call it Blue Like Jazz.” And, I’m glad we kept it. I always liked it and wanted it but didn’t think I was going to get my way. Sometimes you don’t. And, uh, we kept it, and I really liked it because it is just a great metaphor for the idea…it makes sense to people, “Blue Like Jazz”, and yet it doesn’t make any sense at all. And sometimes that’s the way that not only faith works, but relational dynamics work that way too. We can’t really explain it, but you just sort of get it.

JB: It’s kind of a metaphor for it.

DM: Yeah. A metaphor for what faith actually is.

I love his explanation of the title for a couple of reasons. First, it gives us a bit of background as to the history of the book: that it was being given up on etc. We Americans like a story where an underdog prevails, and this book is sort of like that. Secondly, I love that even the title, he admits, is a metaphor. I feel that one of the things that Donald does best is attach metaphors to faith issues. He does that, even with the title. I also like the whole idea where he admits it makes sense, but it doesn’t make sense at all. His writing echoes that in places, and I think it is quite beautiful.

JB: Very cool. Also one of the things I thought was interesting about the book was the subtitle, in addition to the title, which is “nonreligious thoughts on Christian Spirituality.” I’m curious, why do we need nonreligious thoughts on Christian spirituality?

DM: I don’t know that we need them. That’s just what it is. Ya know, that’s just what the book is. I’m not certain that we need them or that it’s better than something else or anything like that. I think that’s where I was when I lived the stories that were in the book, um, I think I was tired of religion, ya know, I was tired of trying to earn something with God. I was tired of what religion meant in a political sense, at least in our culture. And, I wanted faith, I wanted spirituality outside of the trappings of what religion meant, and religion has meant many different things throughout history. But, for me, in my context, it didn’t mean very many good things that I wanted, and yet I didn’t want to throw God out. I wanted that. So I just tried to explore what a relationship with God looked like outside of some of those religious trappings. And the book is a series of stories of what I’ve found.

Donald really hits on something here. More and more people are giving up on religion…myself included, because of what it has come to mean in our culture. I like how he says he was tired of trying to “Earn something with God.” I think we need to guard against religion and focus on a relationship with our God, which is exactly what Donald is doing. You’ll be happy to know, as I was, that he did go back to the church, something he talks a lot about in BLJ. I think the danger in people getting fed up with religion is that they will abandon the church and try to do it on their own, which almost never works and is seldom a healthy alternative. Donald is a good example of how to leave religion without turning your back on God or the church.

JB: With that being said, did you have an audience in mind when you were writing the book?

DM: No, I didn’t. And I normally don’t. I think that when you’re writing, you want to write to yourself and you hope that if you think it’s funny, someone else will think it’s funny. If you think it’s beautiful someone else will think it’s beautiful. And what’s great about that is that you’re not trying to sell anything. If you have an audience in mind you’re trying to sell something to them, and instead you’re just sharing your life and your story and your thoughts. And the other thing that is great about that is the people who are touched by that, you tend to click pretty well with those people. It’s a nice benefit of being yourself, of trying to be yourself at least, in your work.

This is the first place we see Donald mention this idea about phoniness and the beauty in being yourself etc. I agree with him on this issue. I think we have become too much of a salesman type culture. It is refreshing to me to hear him say that he was just writing to himself. I feel that is what I do in this blog…write to myself and hope others come along for the ride. Interesting thoughts.

JB: Tonight’s our kickoff for meal groups. One of the values for our meal groups is the idea of community, and I know that in your book you talked about the community you had with the fellow Christians at Reed College, and then those that you lived with in Oregon. What is it about community? What is it that our people should strive for as they begin these meal groups?

DM: (laughs) I don’t know. That’s not unlike saying “What does it look like to be in love?” It looks a million different ways to a million different people. Um…I think we’re obsessed with doing things right. And our obsession with doing things right illustrates our bad theology. It really does. It illustrates our desire for redemption outside of Christ. To some degree…this is getting much too complicated. I should just give you a simple answer like “people are happy” [in community].

This was a hard part to edit. He doesn’t really answer the question, but his reaction to the question is good enough to include. He talked a bit more about this later, off camera, but the point we should take from Donald is that community is not created with an easy formula, and our attempts to boil it down to an easy formula are sorely lacking.

JB: This book has obviously resonated with a lot of people, both religious and nonreligious people. People who have been in the church for years, and people that I interact with in a coffee shop that would never consider themselves to be in a relationship with God, but it resonates with them. The book seems to be for “now,” at this very moment. Is there something in culture that you recognize that this is resonating with?

DM: Well, I’m not sure what it is that people are responding to. I think…I think, ya know, when writing the book, I didn’t really expect that many people would read it, so there is a level of honesty there that you normally only reserve for your closest friends, and I think that’s part of it, which really tells us something about relationships, that it pays to be honest and be who you are. And, you lose some people, but those people you never would have had anyway, ya know, unless you were fake. And, so there is a level of vulnerability in the book, that, ya know…it taught me a lot, to do that and not know that anybody would read it, and then to have it take off has told me that it’s okay to just kinda be who you are; to at least try.

JB: So this idea of gut level honesty is really appealing. We don’t have that on a day to day basis in our relationships.

DM: No. Think about our culture; everything is fake. Everything is a spin on some half truth. So, we’re being sold products all the time. And in order to sell a product you spin; you point out the benefits and not the reality of what you’re actually going to get. So we encounter this all the time. Our politicians give us half truths …or they can’t get elected if they told us the truth. Um, unless you’re in Minnesota, apparently. You can get elected if you tell the truth. (laughs). Which in a funny way is really great. And, so I think it is so refreshing when someone comes along and they just tell the truth. It’s hard at first. I have a friend who just let me in on some difficulty in his life, not necessarily dark or anything like that, but I just found myself for the month or so after he told me about all this stuff kind of not wanting to talk to him, ‘cause I like things being [neat]…and then suddenly it occurred to me that everybody has this stuff and this guy just actually has the guts to be honest with me. And now I find myself drawn to that friendship and finding it to be real; that this is what I want. I don’t want the pottery barn catalog version of friendships, ya know. I want real life with baby toys around and cheerios. And the Pottery barn lamp is nice, but ya know.

JB: There’s a beauty in that.

DM: There is! There’s a beauty in reality. It’s an acquired taste. It’s not something that immediately you like. But once you acquire a taste for reality, for no BS, no spin, you actually lose your taste for all the sugar that we are constantly being fed, all the spin. And I think we have to break through that in community, in meal groups, whatever, we have to break through the spin and we have to go, “What am I really dealing with?” ya know, and “What’s really going on, both positive and negative?” and not delve into the negative and live in that place, ‘cause there’s so much hope that God gives us, but, at the same time to go, “Here’s where I really am.” “Here’s who I am” and “Here’s what I need” and we find true friendships in those places.

This string of dialogue is my favorite in our time with Donald Miller. He makes some great points about our culture and the relationships we have. You see how he has this hunger for truth and honesty, and this very strong distaste for “pitch” and “spin” and those sorts of things associated with selling a product. One of his primary messages, which he doesn’t connect here, is that god is not a product for us to sell: he is a Father we can choose to relate to and have a relationship with. I think that is a great thing to keep in mind for those of us in church work. How often do we sell Jesus as savior, but leave out the part where he says “Pick up your cross and follow me” or “all men will hate you because of me.” We have been selling Jesus as a self help manual, and it isn’t working. May we not spin Jesus. May we offer him to people in all of his humility and all of his offense.

JB: So as we wrap up with Donald Miller, Blue Like Jazz, are there any concluding thoughts for us?

DM: No, just have a great time. Meal groups are…I mean the idea of sitting around, together, with a group of people, is the closest picture that we have to the ancient church. It really is. Ya know, we go to these ancient cathedrals in Europe and we think “Oh, this church is a thousand years old” and “The way they did things…”. It is incredibly far removed from the actual church that the apostles started, which looked just like meal groups. They weren’t reading Blue Like Jazz back then. But, ya know, if you had the books they were reading back then they would be in Greek and we wouldn’t understand them anyway. Blue Like Jazz is in English (laughs). But have fun, and I think You’ll find God in those places.

It is good to see Donald point back to the ancient church like this…something we could all do more. It is also appropriate that he ends on a light, humorous note. That is Donald. I find it interesting that his goal, as it appears here, is “finding God.” What a great goal. May we vow to find God in whatever way we can and, if we do, I think we have found a great thing.

JB: Excellent. Thank you so much.

DM: Thank you.

Meeting Donald Miller

Tonight was a cool night. Donald Miller was speaking at The Upper Room, which I have known about for months and had circled on my calendar. Don Miller, as you know, is the author of several books, including Blue Like Jazz and Searching for God knows What. If you ever read this blog, you know who Donald miller is. I digress. Angela and I went early, because we wanted to make sure we got good seats. We got there an hour and a half early and besides the janitors and the worship team, we were the only ones. We popped a squat on a couch in the foyer and hung out for a while. After about 25 minutes, I see a man and a woman stroll by, heading for the sanctuary. The man is bigger than I expected, taller and more broad shouldered, but I recognize him anyway. "That's him" I said to Angela, and we both jumped up and followed. "Hey Don," I called. He turned around and I shook his hand and introduced myself and I asked if he had some time to hang out. His assistant (the lady with him) said that he had sound check. I asked if I could get him to sign a couple of books, to which he gladly agreed.

He signed the books "All of Christ to Ya" and "All the hope of Father God to Ya." Ang and I got our picture taken with him (above) and chatted with him for a few minutes. I asked him what it was like to go from being a nobody to being a pretty famous author and speaker in a short time. He said he is asked that question a lot and doesn't have a real good answer for it. He said it doesn't change things as much as one might think, but he said he would think on it and let me know tomorrow (I get to go with a friend and interview him tomorrow).

As I reflect on Donald as a person (in person at least), I am impressed by how down to earth he is. He has a humility and a meekness about him that is refreshing. He is not at all into himself, and by no means does one get the idea that he thinks he is a big deal. It is as if it shocks him that he is famous more than anyone. He told me that his next project is a narrative piece called A Map of Eden. I look forward to that coming out, as I have read everything else he has written.

All in all, it was really cool to meet the man who is behind several books that I respect and admire. He certainly did not disappoint in person and I look forward to spending more time with him tomorrow. I will post another update tomorrow after the interview. Meanwhile, if you haven't read any Donald Miller, start right away. Move it to the top of your reading list. My recommendation is to start with BLJ, then read Searching for God Knows What, then Through Painted Deserts, then To Own a Dragon. I guarantee it will make you think and stretch you.

Religion

Here is a thought from Donald Miller:

"I believe that the greatest trick of the Devil is not to get us into some sort of evil but rather have us wasting time. This is why the Devil tries so hard to get Christians to be Religious. If he can sink a man's mind into habit, he will prevent his heart from engaging God. I was into habit. I grew up going to church, so I got used to hearing about God. He was like Uncle Harry or Aunt Sally except we didn't have pictures." pg 13 of Blue Like Jazz

Wasting time. How many of the devices in our lives are for the sole purpose of wasting our time? And, we complain about never having enough.

Religion. These words ring true to me. I see what he is talking about happening all the time. It seems that Jesus' harshest word were for the most religious people of his day. They had the Religion, but no relationship.

Relationship. Do we just know about God, or do we truly know God? I fear that the former is far more common. I think we have an epidemic in our churches of not truly knowing the risen Lord. We talk about him a lot, but we do no engage him as a living being.

Are Donald and I the only ones who think this?

Book Review: Pondering Blue Like Jazz

"I never liked jazz music," says Donald Miller "because jazz music doesn't resolve. But sometimes you have to watch somebody love something before you can love it yourself...I used to not like God because god didn't resolve. But that was before any of this happened."

Blue like Jazz is one of the most thought provoking books I have ever read. Subtitled "Nonreligious Thoughts on Christian Spirituality," and accurately so, the book takes you on an adventure through some of the life experiences of Donald Miller: a guy who after being raised in a strick Baptist household, walked away from the faith in college only to return later where he has a very unique but personal relationship with God.

Before moving on, as an introduction to Donald Miller, I recommend this sermon, delivered by Miller at Mars Hill Bible Church called God is Fathering Us. What an amazing insight to our relationship with God as our father and how we have missed the point so many times regarding this idea. This is a must listen to sermon! Allow me to say that the first 11 minutes of the download is Mars Hill ministry updates that, while valuable, is not the material I want to stress here. Feel free to fast forward to about 11 minutes in. Also, you must enter a valid email address to download it, but I assure you it is safe and will not result in any type of spam or unwanted solicitation.

Back to the issue at hand. There are several statements I will now make on what makes Blue Like Jazz so unique...perhaps even unlike any other book you have ever read.

1. Miller is perhaps the most honest author I have ever come across. You really must read the book to fully understand what I mean by this, but Miller has a certain quality about him that allows him to say that things that we were all thinking, even if we were not aware of it. Miller is also very honest about his own shortcomings, as well as those of a myriad of other organizations, including the church and government. However, it does not come across in a judgmental way, but in a "concern for truth" way, if that makes sense. Miller is a man who has thought about things on an extremely deep level.

2. Second, Miller's creativity as an author is unmatched. I do not want to say too much, as I do not want to give away some of the surprises the book holds, but he at times takes a completely different approach to writing than most Christian authors do. For one broad example, whereas Christianity has traditionally looked to the Bible first and then applied those truths to daily life, Miller starts with what is true in daily life, and then points out how that is true in the Bible. This is not to say anything about Miller's view on scripture, just on his approach from a "nonreligious" mindset.

3. Third, Miller is a liberal. Though this may seem like a bad thing to some, it was extremely helpful for me to read thoughts from a different political perspective than my own, even refreshing. I found it helpful because Miller is not pushing a political agenda, but rather viewing God through a framework different than mine. In fact, we live in a country that has 2 political extremes, both of which are unhealthy. I'd like to think that Miller and I could meet in the middle and agree on a much healthier medium view. If you are a strong conservative (like me), don't let this scare you away. Rather, let this help you open your mind to a world that we generally do not get to see. And remember, God is not a Republican or a Democrat.

4. Lastly, Miller is extremely personable. His honesty, combined with great stories from his own spiritual journey and laugh out loud humor make you feel like you are sitting at a table listening to his story. I would love to meet Donald Miller. He seems like the kind of guy that would be a great person to have as a friend. You will feel that you connect with him through his writing.

Take the time and read Blue Like Jazz. You can purchase it using the link on your left. I cannot wait to explore Miller's other works. Let me know what you think of Miller and his works. And don't forget to listen to that sermon above!

Donald Miller's Problems With the Church

I finished Blue Like Jazz by Donald Miller tonight. It is a fantastic book to provoke thought and challenge you, as well as to give you insight into what is important. But the review will come later. I wanted to list and comment on what Miller says are his problems with almost every church he has been to. To give a little bit of background, Miller grew up Baptist and at a time, walked away from the faith. He has sense come back to Christ and now writes and speaks to churches and colleges. Here are what he says are his 3 major problems with the church:

1. "I felt like people were trying to sell me Jesus."

"[Preachers] were always pointing out the benefits of the Christian faith. That rubbed me wrong. It's not that there aren't benefits, there are, but did they have to talk about spirituality like it's a vacuum cleaner? I never felt like Jesus was a product. I wanted Him to be a person." Pg 131

I think Miller makes a great point here. I believe that evangelism is a major part of the role of us as Christians, but we must always be careful not to come across as salesmen. We do not share the Gospel to get another notch in our belt. I fear that many people have felt used by Christians in the past because of this salesmen mentality. What are your thoughts.

2. "They seemed to be parrots for the Republican Party."

"Do we have to tow the party line on every single issue? Are the Republicans perfect? I just felt like to be part of the family, I had to think George W. Bush was Jesus. And I didn't." Pg 131

I am a pretty strong Republican, but I have to say that I agree on this too. I think we often make being a Christian synonymous with being a Republican. I think there are some major problems with the Democratic Party, but with the Republican Party as well. I think we should be Christians first, deep thinkers second, and political proponents last. I hesitate advocating activism, because I think a Republican and Democrat should be able to worship next to one another in the same body of believers and call each other "brother." In our current state of political polarization, I'm not sure that is possible.

3. They continually used "War metaphor."

"The churches I attended would embrace war metaphor. They would talk about how we are in a battle, and I agreed with them, only they wouldn't clarify that we were battling poverty and hate and injustice and pride and the powers of darkness. They left us thinking that our war was against liberals and homosexuals. Their teaching would have me believe I was the good person in the world and the liberals were the bad people in the world. Jesus taught that we were all bad and He is good, and He wants to rescue us because there is a war going on and we are hostages in that war." Pg 132

Again, interesting point. I think that we need to be very careful not to alienate people, as Miller alludes to. I think we should be speaking the truth about issues and what the Bible says about them, but I think when we start accusing (which is the Devil's job), we lose our love. We must always be for the liberals, the hippies, the homosexuals etc. even though we are against some liberal ideas, homosexuality etc. We must value people as Jesus did, and sadly, we cannot hold a candle to the way Jesus loved. Tax collectors. Prostitutes. Drunkards. He loved them all. Let us love like Jesus loved. To paraphrase Rick Warren, I want to be known by what I am for, not by what I am against.

There you go. I have given you plenty of ammunition to use against me. Fire away. What do you think about Miller's (and my) critiques?

Cool...

Here is a quote from a book I'm reading. This quote is an amazing thought. It seems as one of those things that I have always known, but was never able to articulate. I believe that this is an accurate diagnosis of the muck in which we live in our world, particularly in the youth culture. Check it out and let me know what you think.

I was wondering the other day, why it is that we turn pop-figures into idols? I have a theory, of course. I think we have this need to be cool, that there is this undercurrent in society that says some people are cool and some people aren’t. And it is very, very important that we are cool. So, when we find somebody who is cool on television or on the radio, we associate ourselves with this person to feel valid ourselves. And the problem I have with this is that we rarely know what the person believes whom we are associating ourselves with. The problem with this is that it indicates there is less value in what people believe, what they stand for; it only matters that they are cool. In other words, who cares what I believe about life, I only care that I am cool. Because in the end, the undercurrent running through culture is not giving people value based upon what they believe and what they are doing to aide society, the undercurrent is deciding their value based upon whether or not they are cool.

By Donald Miller in Blue Like Jazz pg 105

God and the Elements of Story

So I read the third chapter of Blue Like Jazz by Donald Miller (review forthcoming) and I felt compelled to mention one of his ideas here. He relates the idea of God with the components that are in every story ever told: Setting, Conflict, Climax, and Resolution. His thought process goes something like this: If God created everything, including life, and these story components did not come from a person, but from life, then they originally came from God. It provides some interesting insights into God and life.

First up is Setting, which can almost go without mentioning. Who. What. When. Where. Etc. My setting is America. 2006. My Wife and Job. The only somewhat profound thing from this is that we all have a unique setting. We all have a unique story.

Next comes Conflict. There is a reason there conflict in every story ever told. Conflict is part of life. It makes life interesting. Perhaps fully embracing that idea would help us deal with conflict better. Perhaps we would freak out less and trust more. I think that the definition of maturity is becoming good at handling conflict. How did you handle it today? How will you handle it tomorrow?

Third is the Climax. This is the exciting part. The climax is what makes the conflict worth it in the story. Miller defines climax as the place where "a point of decision determines the end of the story." Interesting. We don't generally view our decisions in life as determining the outcomes of our story, but on the big picture this is true. One of Andy Stanley's 7 Checkpoints (For sale, bottom left), the 7 most important things we can infuse into teenagers, is teaching them to make good decisions. Ultimately, the most important decision I will make is answering the question "who is my Lord?" To whom do I belong? In a very literal way this decision determines the end of our story. I have to believe, though, that every other little decision I make has some effect on this outcome too.

Lastly is Resolution. One of the greatest securities about Christianity is knowing that our stories do resolve well. They do have a happy ending. This is the source of our hope. The best part is that it is not a scam. Our ending is not like so many other things in this world where it is "never as good as it seems." In fact, it is better than we can even imagine! Again, this is true on the small scale as well. I honestly believe that following Jesus is the best way to live, even removing an afterlife from the picture. I think it is better to forgive than to be bitter. It is better to be generous than to be greedy. It is better to tell the truth than to lie. Why? Because it is. For some reason life works out better when we do it that way. By the way, that is also what God suggests. His rules are only for our benefit. Why do we so often forget that? How great it is to be the part of a story that has resolution. This is my story. What's yours?