Greg Boyd has a great post about a panel discussion he took part in recently with Shane Claiborne and Chuck Colson. I can't wait to hear it! Greg has some great insights about the conversation that you should definitely check out.
Friday, February 29, 2008
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I read Greg's post. My only comment for now is to wonder whether Claiborne's story about Hitler's secretary is true. I've never heard it before, and just seeing it on film would do little to persuade me of its truth without corroboration.
Hi Chip.
Good point. One thing I can say though, having met shane and heard him speak a number of times, he is pretty good abut mentioning sources. Oh, and I suppose he did, with the movie, but the question is if the movie is reliable. I'm sure with a little research we could find out.
I've had a little more time to gather my thoughts, and I have a couple of additional comments.
1. I don't endorse trying to change our culture or the behavior of people in our nation through changes in law or national policy. This is the same old program we see in the Old Testament, and we already know it has failed. God doesn't want model citizens whose hearts are filled with murder, greed, hatred, and every evil desire. He wants people whose hearts are wholly devoted to him. That cannot happen through legislative or judicial fiat. The only way to win people's hearts is through laying down our own lives for them.
Nevertheless, we have a form a government unlike anything the biblical authors ever saw. Our government is of the people, by the people, and for the people. Since we live in a democracy, we have a responsibility, not as Christians but as citizens, to participate through activism, through making our voices heard, and through voting. Of course, we will quite naturally uphold and defend the values we hold most dear. This is a civic duty, not a Christian one, and each person must decide before God the extent of his or her own involvement in politics. I think the movie Amazing Grace gives us an excellent example of what a committed Christian can accomplish in the political arena. But, of course, not everyone is a William Wilberforce.
2. I've thought before about calling Jesus President instead of Lord, but I have a serious problem with it: the President is elected. The President serves at the will of the people and is answerable to them. We owe him our allegiance only insofar as he upholds the Constitution and the rule of law. When we proclaim Jesus Lord, though, we claim a place of pre-eminence for him above all nations, rulers, and human institutions. We do not choose his position; it is guaranteed by his Father. We merely acknowledge it as a fact.
This why it disturbs me to hear people talk of "making Jesus Lord" of their lives. We don't make Jesus Lord any more than we make the sun shine. When confronted with a fact you either acknowledge it and thus deal with reality or deny it and suffer the consequences of refusing to believe what's real. The bible never uses language that implies that Jesus serves as Lord at the pleasure of his people. Instead it talks of confessing and acknowledging him as Lord. When we confess Jesus as Lord, we acknowledge his authority over everything: governments, institutions, and every power in heaven or on earth. Lord is a much more powerful title than President.
Yes Chip, but if you believe that humans have free will, than there is some reality to confessing him "Lord of Your life", perhaps the one domain that you can control if you wish. That is why we use language like "surrendering your life to him" etc. The implication is that we invite him to be lord over us.
And as far as Jesus as president, it certainly is not a perfect title (just as lord probably isn't because it is outdated), it does have some interesting benefits like Greg mentioned. It makes you think a little more deeply. We all know that when Jesus came declaring his kingdom, the word would have been the same as empire, and would have been seen as a shot at the Roman Empire. If Jesus came today, we might wonder what terms he might use to comment on the american system which, though much better than the Roman empire, certainly has its idolatrous elements.
I regard human will as free, but in any contest between God's will and human will, the human will must give way. As Job says, If it is a matter of strength, he is mighty! And if it is a matter of justice, who will summon him? Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.
Since no one can contravene his will, he is Lord, and there is no other. No one surrenders to him without first being drawn to him by his irresistible grace. Indeed, the rebel only surrenders when every avenue of escape has been blocked and continued rebellion has become impossible. Surrender is not something we do willingly; it is the last resort, the final, desperate act of one whose every other act has already been anticipated and thwarted. There is no question of "inviting" him to be Lord; we acknowledge that he is Lord because he gives us no other choice.
Surrender is not something we do willingly; it is the last resort, the final, desperate act of one whose every other act has already been anticipated and thwarted. There is no question of "inviting" him to be Lord; we acknowledge that he is Lord because he gives us no other choice.
I disagree with this fundamentally.
But, no reason to rehash old arguments that we will make no ground on.
...no reason to rehash old arguments that we will make no ground on....
Drat! Foiled again!
Nick said, "no reason to rehash old arguments that we will make no ground on."
Chip counters with, "Drat! Foiled again!
Why can't you guys argue about the really important stuff like "the relative sanctification of pews vs. chairs" or "Is modern worship the anthem of the Antichrist?" All this conversation stuff is getting boring.
Sheesh. :)
Nick,
I want you to know that I love your post.
I want you to know more than that brother I love you blog. It is one of my favorites. I am planning on reading it everyday because when I read it I am strengthened and encouaraged. Keep up the great blogging.
In Him,
Kinney Mabry
Thanks so much, Kinney. You inspire me to keep going.
Thanks!
Looks like you have a very active readership over at your blog. Feel free to steer them this way ;-)
Chip,
Claiborne includes this story about Hitler's secretary in his new book (pg 203). He said it is from the documentary Blindspot, and from the memior of his secretary Traudl Junge. So, maybe you could find the documentry.
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